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April 17, 2006

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[00:34:10] <freaksw> i hate this thing.
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[00:53:41] <xwl> Hi, anybody has idea of this error? "Failed to initialize environment. /home/william/studio/3eye/.svn does not appear to be a Subversion repository." That directory is definitely a svn repo checkout.
[00:54:37] <xwl> i also tried use /home/william/studio/3eye.
[01:24:03] <xwl> ah, i see. shouldn't be a repo checked out.
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[02:30:49] <alect> hey chirs
[02:30:54] <alect> err, chris
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[04:17:08] <Blackhex> hello
[04:17:35] <alect> that was quick :)
[04:17:45] * alect <- athomas
[04:17:58] <Blackhex> :-)
[04:18:23] <alect> so soundtech will hopefully be on a bit later
[04:19:13] <Blackhex> ok, i have something other to do anyway
[04:26:12] <Blackhex> Is there someone who has intetion in DoxygenPlugin too?
[04:26:39] <alect> i'm not sure
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[05:43:27] <s0undt3ch> anyone called?
[05:43:58] <alect> yeah, blackhex: http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/318
[05:45:51] <s0undt3ch> hum, so we got an extra set of hands and eyes ;)
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[05:51:27] <s0undt3ch> alect: the diffs he sent work on current trunk of DiscussionPlugin?
[05:52:07] <alect> he just joined ^^
[05:52:23] <Blackhex2> hi, i had to restart
[05:53:27] <s0undt3ch> hello there Blackhex2 the patches on #60 for DiscussionPlugin work against the the trunk of the plugin?
[05:53:45] <Blackhex2> for me, yes
[05:54:05] <Blackhex2> use only the lastest one
[05:54:31] <Blackhex2> that previous two was create manually, that last by svn diff
[05:55:27] <s0undt3ch> yesterday, I asked alect to keep developing the plug, but after looking at it and tweaking a bit, I found out that it was probably too soon to try and make something this big, you aparently did more than I could
[05:56:03] <s0undt3ch> so, I guess that if you fell that you can do it, I'll drop my intentions of developing it, although I can contribute
[05:56:42] <s0undt3ch> I really just want a forum for my trac projects, so I can remove phpBB from my system
[05:57:39] <s0undt3ch> Blackhex2: so, what do you say
[05:58:16] <Blackhex2> I have bacalary work term at the end of month so next few days I cannot work on it but in May i could start working on it
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[05:59:41] <s0undt3ch> Blackhex2: k, if I do start working on it before you do, I'll post a comment on #318
[06:00:10] <Blackhex2> ok
[06:00:42] <s0undt3ch> although on your diff I don't recall seeing anything related to webadmin, is it manageable trough webadmin already?
[06:01:25] <Blackhex2> i digged little in this lately and i think there sholdn't be some dificulties
[06:01:51] <s0undt3ch> k, great
[06:02:19] <Blackhex2> it wasn't i think, it depens on AdminConsoleProviderPatch
[06:02:51] <s0undt3ch> k, so we need to port that part to webadmin
[06:03:02] <Blackhex2> so i removed any dependencies on it but didn't appedn WebAdminPlugiin support yet
[06:03:16] <Blackhex2> deffinetly
[06:04:53] <Blackhex2> what do you think shold be manageable within WebAdmin?
[06:07:14] <s0undt3ch> Blackhex2: well, all admin related stuff, Forum admin(create/edit/delete), Posts Admin(create/delete)
[06:07:20] <Blackhex2> Because i think that thread appending, contribution deleting, etc could be done directly in discussion plugin's pages as in my simple GuestbookPlugin.
[06:07:24] <s0undt3ch> for starters
[06:07:41] <Blackhex2> and accesible with apropriate rights
[06:07:49] <s0undt3ch> that too
[06:08:44] <s0undt3ch> k, so Forum admin(create/edit/delete) should be done im webadmin
[06:09:12] <s0undt3ch> everything else could be like you said within the plug itself with apropriate rights
[06:10:22] <s0undt3ch> one thing that is pissing me tough and not just for this plug, clearsilver, errr
[06:10:34] <cmlenz> hehe
[06:10:59] <s0undt3ch> I'll even do something like a user did on this channel a few days ago
[06:11:03] <s0undt3ch> kid, kid, kid
[06:11:06] <Blackhex2> i am new in using clearsilver too but its similat to xslt so i can handle it
[06:11:15] <s0undt3ch> and I have read that kid is not that fast
[06:12:14] <Blackhex2> you mean kid = children?
[06:12:26] <s0undt3ch> actually I know nothing of xml, xsl, xslt, cs, kid, but cs seems a bit hard to understand without re-reading all lines slowly
[06:12:37] <s0undt3ch> Blackhex2: kid, the template engine
[06:12:43] <Blackhex2> ah, see
[06:13:19] <alect> i think it's mostly the formatting that makes clearsilver hard to read
[06:13:28] <alect> but without the formatting you end up with reams of whitespace
[06:13:35] <s0undt3ch> the discussion about the templating engine or better the pluggable templating engine will start being discussed for 0.11 only I guess
[06:14:03] <Blackhex2> i can used to cs :-)
[06:14:06] <cmlenz> well, we might start a branch earlier, but a new templating engine is scheduled for 0.11
[06:14:22] <alect> woohoo!
[06:14:37] * alect flips clearsilver the bird
[06:14:47] <s0undt3ch> we have a winner already? for the default?
[06:17:23] <Blackhex2> Back to WebAdmin, don't you think that when you will have Discussion page in admin to manage Forums it will look very similar to that page on plugin's main page? So why make it twice?
[06:21:23] <cmlenz> s0undt3ch: default what?
[06:27:03] <Blackhex2> cmlenz: template system
[06:28:12] <cmlenz> the consensus I think is that we do want "something like kid"
[06:28:28] <alect> heh
[06:28:39] <cmlenz> I have a couple of serious problems with the kid implementation, so it probably isn't going to actually *be* kid ;-)
[06:29:40] <Blackhex2> and how it looks like with multi language wiki support?
[06:31:59] <cmlenz> you mean choosing the wiki syntax? per page or something?
[06:33:49] <Blackhex2> no, i mean some option to choose displayed wiki page in other language. Ie from http headear or buttons with flags
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[06:34:17] <cmlenz> not planned yet
[06:34:37] <cmlenz> I also don't think that's in the scope of trac core
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[06:34:43] <cmlenz> trac isn't wikipedia
[06:34:45] <cmlenz> ;-)
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[06:35:39] <Blackhex2> I thought that i could write little plugin that display flags defined by macro with absolute positioning but language autodetection would be great
[06:36:29] <cmlenz> you mean accept-language?
[06:36:55] <Blackhex2> but system messages, mainav, buttons in trac shold be translatable too
[06:37:11] <cmlenz> well, *that*'s planned for 0.11
[06:37:23] <s0undt3ch> "Back to WebAdmin, don't you think that when you will have Discussion page in admin to manage Forums it will look very similar to that page on plugin's main page? So why make it twice?
[06:37:28] <Blackhex2> maybe i did't seaching info abot that yet
[06:37:29] <s0undt3ch> "
[06:38:19] <s0undt3ch> well, in webadmin we will only see forum names, description and probably moderators/perms(forum closed, etc...)
[06:38:36] <s0undt3ch> not the full threads
[06:39:22] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: did you already saw how discussion plugins looks like for now?
[06:39:32] <s0undt3ch> Blackhex2: he he, no
[06:39:59] <s0undt3ch> that's what on my mind based on the only screenshot of it
[06:40:23] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: ok, so there is screenshot of main plugin's page
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[06:40:42] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: there is only list of avaiable formus and their description
[06:41:28] <s0undt3ch> k, so on webadmin we would not have the pretty looks of all that, and we could edit them
[06:41:37] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: so if there will be likn to edit these descriotion, moderato, etc it will have same funcionality and there will be no dependency on webadmin
[06:42:08] <s0undt3ch> well, that's true, but why can't we depend on something that will start being included?
[06:42:19] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: I am not avoidint use WebAdmin but only if it will be necesary
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[06:42:30] <s0undt3ch> ie, not being a dpendency, built it
[06:42:55] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: sorry, i didn't kno that
[06:43:08] <s0undt3ch> put it like that there's no need, but webadmin will become the admin of all trac, so why not use it
[06:43:54] <s0undt3ch> I know, it well need more coding to use it, but then, everything will be in the correct places
[06:44:57] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: So could we write discussion plugin without WebAdmin until it will be released or admin API will be same as it is now for 0.9 ?
[06:46:23] <s0undt3ch> well, we could, but we would latter need to port it to webadmin, it that's not a problem for you, I won't make it a problem, it would just mean not re-doing stuff ;)
[06:48:09] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: I know, but administering plugin directly seems more comfortable to me, so we shold implement both - direct managing and webadmin managing - for user comfortance :-)
[06:49:05] <s0undt3ch> lol, now that's double trouble, hell, lets go for an independent plug and not use webadmin, unless later we feel the need for it, better?
[06:50:21] <Blackhex2> s0undt3ch: ok, we could think over some new interface for discussions and in future only use it in webadmin extetion
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[06:50:51] <alect> i think stuff like deleting posts, deleting topics, etc. would be better in the normal window
[06:51:06] <alect> things you can do with one click of a button for example
[06:51:19] <alect> but i reckon for adding forums, it should be in webadmin
[06:51:23] <alect> just my opinion of course :)
[06:52:01] <Blackhex2> alect: ok
[06:54:52] <alect> when's the next pec upgrade chris?
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[06:55:38] <alect> i think you can pretty much rely on webadmin being present too
[06:55:47] <alect> i'd guess it's by far the most popular plugin :)
[06:56:04] <Blackhex2> alect: :-)
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[06:59:24] <cmlenz> alect: not sure... /me is worried it may become a headache :-P
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[07:00:22] <alect> seems like a possibility with all the unicode goodness
[07:00:24] <alect> @unicode
[07:00:24] <evil_twin> alect: "unicode" is Evil, evil, evil!
[07:01:33] <cmlenz> heh
[07:03:54] <asmodai> unicode is nice
[07:04:02] <alect> IT'S THE DEVIL'S WORK I TELL YOU
[07:04:18] <asmodai> So? My nickname is a daemon's name... ;)
[07:04:22] * asmodai is on good terms with Luci
[07:04:29] <alect> :)
[07:04:36] <asmodai> Damn, I love setuptools
[07:04:44] <alect> it's good alright
[07:04:50] <alect> not a fan of ez_setup though
[07:04:50] <asmodai> heck ya
[07:05:11] <asmodai> just emailed Gerhard if he could release pysqlite 2.2.0 with a fixed setup.cfg or release 2.2.1 with it.
[07:07:05] <asmodai> cmlenz: Dude! How are you? :)
[07:07:21] <cmlenz> fine :-)
[07:08:26] <asmodai> Good to hear.
[07:08:39] <asmodai> cmlenz: I hope I can test those recent bitten changes for you
[07:09:03] <cmlenz> wow, that'd be awesome
[07:09:20] <asmodai> cmlenz: Just need to fix the setup on that box
[07:10:38] <asmodai> how's trac progressing anyway?
[07:11:25] <asmodai> Ow, 0.9.5 in 2 days?
[07:11:32] <cmlenz> pretty nicely
[07:11:47] <cmlenz> yeah, a bug fix release
[07:11:56] <cmlenz> 99% of the action is on 0.10 right now
[07:12:04] <asmodai> I should start hacking it again
[07:12:13] <asmodai> Now that I cleared some things.
[07:12:39] <asmodai> Is kid the definite choice now? *looking at 0.11*
[07:13:49] <cmlenz> the consensus I think is that we do want "something like kid"
[07:15:14] <cmlenz> meaning, someone's doing some stuff in a secret lab and isn't ready to talk about it just yet ;-)
[07:15:30] <asmodai> Well, I promised back then and I am still keeping my eye on kid, if I deliver kid for trac, would it be accepted or an own language for templating?
[07:16:45] <asmodai> T0p S3kr1t l4b eh?
[07:17:12] <cmlenz> I did some serious work with kid when refactoring drproject in january, and while the *language* is pretty cool, I did hit some problems with the implementation
[07:17:34] <cmlenz> for example, I very much dislike the code generation strategy
[07:18:13] <asmodai> Through kid/kidc you mean?
[07:18:32] <cmlenz> well, kid compiles in general, always
[07:18:42] <cmlenz> generates python code, and compiles that
[07:18:48] <asmodai> *nod*
[07:18:51] <cmlenz> which makes it very hard to understand what's going on
[07:19:05] <asmodai> And leveraging from django/template ?
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[07:19:24] <cmlenz> I'm not a fan of the django template engine, tbh
[07:20:06] <asmodai> Fair enough.
[07:20:13] <cmlenz> really want to be able to use python expressions in templates
[07:20:22] * asmodai wonders if cmlenz is the sole custodian nowadays of Trac :)
[07:20:24] <cmlenz> and want automatic escaping etc
[07:20:52] <alect> "benevolent dictator" i think is the term ;)
[07:21:06] <cmlenz> I'm not benevolent! ;-)
[07:21:09] <alect> hehe
[07:21:21] <asmodai> LOL
[07:21:39] <cmlenz> well, I think there are quite a few folks writing code for trac now... such as cboos, alect, eblot
[07:22:04] <asmodai> *nod*
[07:22:10] <asmodai> But it changed from the initial setup :)
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[07:23:41] <cmlenz> yeah
[07:25:37] <asmodai> So, who's tinkering in the t0p s3kr1t l4b? ;)
[07:27:10] <alect> hehe
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[07:32:31] <cmlenz> dude, that's SECRET! ;-)
[07:41:53] <asmodai> nooooooooo
[07:41:59] <asmodai> :'(
[07:42:49] <asmodai> meanie
[07:44:49] <cmlenz> hehe
[07:45:09] <cmlenz> okay, it's not that secret: check out http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/attachment/wiki/ChristopherLenz/template.4.py
[07:45:26] <alect> some secret!
[07:46:09] <cmlenz> ah well :-P
[07:47:11] <alect> one thing's for sure, the kinks will get seriously worked out once it's in place, what with all the pages needing migration
[07:48:04] <cmlenz> my current plan is to keep an optional clearsilver compatibility layer... meaning you'll only need to install clearsilver if you use a plugin that uses clearsilver templates
[07:48:17] <asmodai> btw pygettext:No such file or directory, the pygettext.py from /usr/local/share/python2.4/Tools/i18n/ ?
[07:48:22] <alect> seems wise
[07:48:43] <alect> you'd probably get many angry plugin writers/users beating down your door otherwise
[07:49:15] <cmlenz> heh
[07:49:33] <alect> is it going to use the same Interface ?
[07:49:48] <alect> ie. IRequestHandler?
[07:49:51] <cmlenz> they'll need to migrate anyway because many users won't put up with plugins requiring clearsilver
[07:50:15] <cmlenz> yeah, although the return value type might change for new-style templates
[07:50:30] <cmlenz> i.e., return the dict of data to render
[07:50:42] <cmlenz> or something to that effect
[07:50:50] <alect> yeah
[07:51:22] <cmlenz> but with many macros relying on a "stuffed HDF", the migration will still be troublesome
[07:51:46] <alect> thinking about the general template plugin (can't remember who made it?), that could easily be done as a third party plugin
[07:53:14] <alect> implement their own IPluggableTemplateHandler that others use, and return a neo_cs.CS object with the raw html in it
[07:53:25] <alect> return via IRequestHandler that is
[07:53:36] <alect> and yes, i agree, it will still be troublesome :)
[07:54:44] <alect> maybe we can finally change the macro function signature!!!
[07:54:45] <alect> REQ!
[07:57:45] <asmodai> mmm
[07:57:56] <asmodai> low hanging fruit: http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/ticket/3022
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[07:58:18] <alect> heh
[07:59:18] <cmlenz> alect: do you think we still need old-style macros now that we support plugins as plain-old-python files?
[07:59:40] <alect> good point
[08:00:02] <cmlenz> I'm not sure myself
[08:00:07] <alect> if they're going to break anyway, they may as well be deprecated
[08:00:39] <alect> PoP plugins saves me so much time during testing
[08:02:14] <asmodai> alect: well, my way of contributing in small steps ;)
[08:04:52] <alect> fear not! there are only 421 references to hdf in the trac source
[08:05:35] <asmodai> lol
[08:05:42] <asmodai> You know what I miss?
[08:05:49] <asmodai> A good working Python refactoring program
[08:06:00] <bda> vi?
[08:06:03] <alect> there was one wasn't there?
[08:06:25] <asmodai> bda: I use vim.
[08:06:31] <bda> So do I. I was just being a smartass.
[08:06:32] <alect> sweet vim
[08:06:35] <alect> heh
[08:06:35] <asmodai> Must say, the v7 omnicomplete rocks
[08:06:47] <alect> what is this "omnicomplete" of which you speak?
[08:06:56] <asmodai> You familiar with intellisense?
[08:07:31] <alect> i know *of* it..gives you little popups with possible completions or something?
[08:07:38] <asmodai> *nod*
[08:07:40] <asmodai> That ;)
[08:07:51] <asmodai> code introspection and such and allows function and other completions
[08:08:23] <alect> i have tab completion of all python symbols at the moment...is this better?
[08:08:33] <asmodai> Context sensitive.
[08:08:43] <alect> ahooh
[08:08:46] <alect> might try that
[08:08:59] <alect> http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1520
[08:09:53] <asmodai> Yeah, a few are with vim by default
[08:09:58] <asmodai> c, (x)html, css
[08:10:23] <asmodai> mmm
[08:10:26] <asmodai> pycomplete?
[08:10:28] * asmodai checks
[08:10:41] <asmodai> "pycomplete.vim - Omni Completion for python
[08:10:42] <asmodai> :D
[08:11:09] <asmodai> lol it uses python to get to the information it needs :D
[08:11:48] <alect> excellent
[08:12:27] <alect> v7 is only available through cvs?
[08:12:52] <asmodai> want a screenshot?
[08:12:53] <asmodai> no
[08:12:57] <alect> ah nm
[08:12:58] <alect> found it
[08:13:00] <alect> yes!
[08:13:01] <asmodai> 7.0d is downloadable
[08:13:02] <alect> screenshot me
[08:13:05] <asmodai> let me make a screenshot, seccie
[08:13:55] * bda demands a screencast.
[08:14:15] <alect> screenshots are *so* web 1.0
[08:14:30] <asmodai> bda: lol
[08:15:00] <asmodai> moment, installing program
[08:15:17] <bda> You have to install something to take a screenshot? What OS is this?
[08:15:25] <alect> you know what absolutely shits me? tarballs/zips that don't have a top-level directory
[08:15:26] * cprov is now known as cprov-lunch
[08:15:29] <alect> GOD DAMMIT!
[08:15:38] <asmodai> I have using Windows as my workstation for the last few months
[08:15:44] <asmodai> been debating what to alterboot to
[08:15:45] <alect> now i have vim source all over my drive
[08:15:53] <asmodai> heh
[08:17:07] <asmodai> bda: I've been in need for good unicode script support and quite frankly that sucks on BSD or Linux
[08:18:38] <alect> am i gonna need --enable-pythoninterp?
[08:18:42] * idostyle has joined #trac
[08:18:55] <asmodai> Yea.
[08:19:00] <asmodai> For this one for python yes
[08:19:41] <asmodai> http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/vim-completion.png
[08:20:05] <asmodai> I hit Ctrl-o, ctrl-x after sys.
[08:20:49] <asmodai> After having set omnifun=pycomplete#Complete
[08:20:52] <asmodai> omnifunc
[08:20:59] <tic> asmodai, that's only in vim-7 is it�
[08:21:22] <asmodai> yes
[08:21:52] <tic> Hrm, I missed up my "?"
[08:21:58] * tic fixes
[08:22:14] <asmodai> mmm
[08:22:21] <asmodai> sys.call_tracing(func, args) #returns object
[08:22:31] <alect> that is quite cool
[08:22:39] <alect> although your colours need some love asmodai!
[08:22:44] <asmodai> did sys. ctrl-o ctrl-x and then arrowed to call_tracing(
[08:22:54] <asmodai> and then ctrl-x ctrl-o again and it made it that
[08:23:04] <asmodai> alect: erhm, this is my own colour scheme :S
[08:23:17] <alect> i figured ;)
[08:23:23] <asmodai> alect: Easy on my eyes
[08:23:29] <asmodai> with this I can code for hours
[08:24:03] <asmodai> ok
[08:24:08] <asmodai> that purplish stuff I need to fix
[08:24:54] <asmodai> alect: Hope you meant that part :P
[08:25:28] <alect> when i press <tab> after sys. i get this:
[08:25:35] <alect> http://swapoff.org/files/vim.jpg
[08:25:39] <alect> yeah i did mean that :)
[08:25:39] <bda> Oh man, that is a lot of pink. :)
[08:25:58] <asmodai> bda: oh hush :)
[08:26:07] <asmodai> alect: yea, I have/had stuff like that as well
[08:26:08] <bda> It's fabulous!
[08:26:10] <bda> ;P
[08:26:13] <alect> hehe
[08:26:16] <asmodai> Absolutely fabulous dahling
[08:26:53] <bda> So we're having a "trac update" meeting tomorrow afternoon to discuss trac.
[08:27:03] <alect> ooh, that sounds cool
[08:27:09] <alect> what does it mean?
[08:27:09] <bda> As in, how we've been using it, problems we've been having, etc. As the "trac guy" I'm not looking forward to it. :)
[08:27:17] <alect> heh
[08:27:58] <bda> My boss is all into it. He added a "rumor mill" wiki page the other day.
[08:28:27] <bda> I was expecting something humorous, but he was being serious. Crap about schools we might buy or support, our involvement in the School of the Future. Mmf.
[08:28:43] <alect> O_o
[08:28:49] <asmodai> At least he is happy with it :)
[08:29:02] <alect> we have a KunckleHeads page in our work twiki
[08:29:07] <bda> alect: I work for a university. :)
[08:29:11] <alect> and a PoolRoom for good stuff
[08:29:18] <bda> School of the Future == Microsoft building a Philly high school.
[08:29:30] <alect> jesus
[08:29:33] <bda> Yeah.
[08:29:43] <alect> is that for real?
[08:29:46] <bda> Yup.
[08:30:05] <alect> here's a good one from the pool room :)
[08:30:05] <alect> Daniel: "What does perl return for X?"
[08:30:06] <alect> Alec: "Depends if you call it in scalar context or array context"
[08:30:06] <alect> Julian: "You sometimes find array context at birthday parties. People usually prefix it with Hip, Hip..."
[08:30:10] <bda> http://www.microsoft.com/Education/SchoolofFuture.mspx
[08:30:21] <bda> alect: booo. :)
[08:30:25] <alect> heheh
[08:30:33] <alect> julian is the best punster ever
[08:30:40] <bda> Oh shit.
[08:30:48] * asmodai doesn't grok that joke
[08:30:49] <alect> wow, that school is scary
[08:30:55] <bda> He updated the School of the Future page. We're top pick for hosting now.
[08:31:02] <alect> heh
[08:31:35] <asmodai> alect: next step for that pycomplete will be filling in choices for that parameter stuff for functions ;)
[08:31:42] <bda> asmodai: "Hip hip hooray"?
[08:32:13] <asmodai> bda: Must be me, not funny :S
[08:32:31] <alect> it's a pun, it's only funny if you like them ;)
[08:32:46] <asmodai> I like puns, but I found this far-fetched. :S
[08:32:57] <asmodai> ah well
[08:33:08] <bda> nubs.
[08:34:01] <alect> why the hell vim can't just use normal autoconf like every other bloody program is beyond me
[08:35:21] <asmodai> AAP
[08:35:23] <alect> i wonder how well omnisense will work in a console
[08:35:42] <alect> aap will put crap all over my system
[08:35:53] <alect> i have a package manager because i'm a fascist dammit!
[08:36:17] <asmodai> alect: haven't tested that yet
[08:41:32] <alect> okay
[08:41:51] <alect> packaged up, how do i enable t