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July 17, 2006

[00:12:44] * paulproteus has left #trac
[00:17:06] * cmlenz has joined #trac
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[01:25:41] * asmodai pats cmlenz
[01:26:40] <cmlenz> hey asmodai
[01:27:06] <asmodai> mat|work: One problem I have with 'needinfo', if your trac is not set up to email stuff, and by default it isn't what I know, you basically require the end-user to periodically check the ticket
[01:28:22] <asmodai> cmlenz: that's one thing I am still divided over, at one point I understand and appreciate how clean trac is and doesn't enforce stuff on you, on the other hand I sometimes find the base install to be a bit too sparse for effective ticket management.
[01:32:50] <cmlenz> asmodai: do something about it :-D
[01:33:08] <cmlenz> I do agree though
[01:33:50] <asmodai> webadmin is a good step forward, on the other hand, you cannot enforce feedback needed/needinfo emails to the originator if we allow freeform user entries
[01:34:12] <asmodai> otoh, I am also not sure if mandatory registration for user or email address is what people would like/want
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[01:35:02] <cmlenz> if the reporter wants to see a reported issue fixed, chances are he'll include contact info
[01:35:29] <asmodai> *nod*
[01:35:36] <asmodai> So what part did you agree with? :)
[01:36:08] <cmlenz> well, that in general, trac is probably too simple for ticket management in large projects
[01:36:40] <asmodai> *nod*
[01:40:41] <asmodai> cmlenz: question is, what should be changed
[01:40:58] <asmodai> One major thing is the multiple projects setup within one config.
[01:41:17] * asmodai checks soome more
[01:42:41] <asmodai> cmlenz: can't we turn off report to use query in SVN trunk when .10 is released? :)
[01:43:17] <cmlenz> query desperately needs support for date-based queries/ordering/grouping
[01:43:26] <cmlenz> but I'd like to make queries the default
[01:44:22] <asmodai> cmlenz: select on when they were opened? or also when last modified?
[01:44:26] <asmodai> mmm
[01:44:29] <asmodai> interesting
[01:44:43] * asmodai wonders if he could hack that up
[01:44:53] <cmlenz> anything... in the future (workflow merge) you'll also be able to have datetime custom fields
[01:45:06] <cmlenz> so you want "show me every open ticket not touched in the last 2 months"
[01:45:13] <cmlenz> and things like that
[01:45:40] <asmodai> *nod*
[01:45:47] <cmlenz> basically what's needed is a good conceptual model and some UI ideas
[01:45:54] <cmlenz> the implementation is the easy part :-P
[01:46:00] <asmodai> that should be an easy hack for me to dive into the source, no?
[01:46:07] <asmodai> conceptual model and UI for what?
[01:46:20] <cmlenz> for datetime-based queries
[01:46:56] <cmlenz> what are the use cases, requirements etc
[01:48:57] <asmodai> How verbose do you want it?
[01:50:23] <cmlenz> whatever it takes ;-)
[01:50:59] <asmodai> cmlenz: I could describe a few. But then what for your UI idea? :P
[01:51:14] <cmlenz> I don't really have any, that's the problem
[01:51:23] <cmlenz> it should obviously fit in nicely with the current filter UI
[01:51:41] <cmlenz> you need to be able to specify absolute dates and time spans
[01:52:22] <cmlenz> e.g. "last_modified" / "in range" / "last 2 weeks"
[01:52:39] <cmlenz> "due" / "in range" / "next 2 weeks"
[01:52:42] <cmlenz> stuff like that
[01:53:20] <asmodai> ah
[01:53:23] <asmodai> mmm
[01:54:19] <cmlenz> in general, email client filter GUIs are a good inspiration source for the query filter interface
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[02:02:38] * asmodai checks out markup's trunk
[02:02:50] <asmodai> cmlenz: Most of the templates still need conversion?
[02:03:00] <cmlenz> yeah
[02:03:36] <cmlenz> really need to move that into the trac sandbox
[02:07:49] <asmodai> cmlenz: after the conversion, right?
[02:07:59] <cmlenz> what conversion?
[02:08:26] <asmodai> Didn't you have a repo where you were already converting the trac templates from cs to markup?
[02:12:32] <cmlenz> yeah, in the markup repos... but I'd like to move that effort into the Trac sandbox
[02:12:37] <cmlenz> because that's where it belongs ;-)
[02:13:06] <cmlenz> currently it's in examples/trac in the markup trunk
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[02:34:22] <asmodai> cmlenz: will check and work on some additional
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[02:35:11] <simmerz> where do i need to look to deal with setting up multi-repository/multi-project support?
[02:36:47] * tuxipuxi still wonders who is keen to patch Trac to get extra functionality. he prefers painless upgrades
[02:39:10] <cmlenz> tuxipuxi: hmm?
[02:41:18] <tuxipuxi> cmlenz: well.. how many people came here asking how to edit the look of trac or how to implement multi-project support or how to add ICQ notifications (possible in 0.10, i know)? a lot
[02:42:09] <maxb> Well, if no one played around with the code, it would be rather sad. And would mean there was no pool of contributors
[02:42:55] <maxb> One assumes that (a) upgrades within a stable series should be easy nonetheless, and (b) people comfortable enough to edit the code are capable of forward-porting their changes.
[02:43:04] <tuxipuxi> last time i checked there was no agreement on how multi project support should look like.. and as long as this is not clear it's hard to accept a patch which implements exactly that
[02:44:09] <maxb> Agreed... people looking for an off-the-shelf solution right now are misguided.
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[03:02:05] <asmodai> ICQ notifications? Oh dear. :)
[03:05:27] <tuxipuxi> asmodai: http://trac-hacks.org/ticket/506 e.g. :)
[03:06:25] <asmodai> but what about: AIM, MSN, Y!?
[03:06:25] <asmodai> ;)
[03:07:29] <tuxipuxi> that will be part of the more general TracBot framework! ;)
[03:19:39] <asmodai> cmlenz: Anything against trac having a setup.cfg that also has a egg_info with
[03:19:39] <asmodai> tag_build = dev
[03:19:39] <asmodai> tag_svn_revision = true
[03:20:09] <cmlenz> stuff like that is going in the setuptools branch for now
[03:20:13] <cmlenz> (which has that already)
[03:20:17] <asmodai> oh ok
[03:20:24] * asmodai wonders how many branches there are.
[03:20:26] <asmodai> ;)
[03:22:15] <maxb> Trac does seem to be toward the higher end of the spectrum in terms of amount of feature branch usage
[03:23:16] <asmodai> svn branches are cheap ;')
[03:24:15] <maxb> True... but the developers' mental energy used juggling them all is less so.
[03:32:13] <cmlenz> ideally, when we release a major version, and open trunk for new features, that just means merging a number of existing branches into trunk, no major new feature development
[03:32:53] <cmlenz> the branches themselves have been developed and have seen some limited testing, so after the merge we need to make sure the work well together, fix bugs and polish
[03:33:43] <sam`> hi
[03:34:06] <sam`> just a wondering about the 'read-only' bit on wiki pages : does it mess with trac-admin wiki-upgrade or can it be safely done ?
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[03:39:49] <cmlenz> no, wiki-upgrade doesn't care about the read-only flag
[03:41:56] * asmodai fights with markup :)
[03:42:44] <asmodai> cmlenz: Did you not add an include like operator?
[03:43:21] <cmlenz> RTFM ;-)
[03:43:30] <cmlenz> http://markup.edgewall.org/wiki/MarkupTemplates#TemplateIncludes
[03:43:59] <asmodai> cmlenz: I was busy on that
[03:44:10] <asmodai> just wondering why you were duplicating the preamble ;)
[03:44:41] <asmodai> alrighty
[03:44:53] <asmodai> ah duh
[03:45:03] <asmodai> yeah, that will limit you
[03:45:52] <cmlenz> hmm?
[03:46:22] <asmodai> cmlenz: Oh, you'll always need the DOCTYPE in each document due to needing XInclude for includes.
[03:46:44] <cmlenz> ah no, it's more complicated than that
[03:47:09] <cmlenz> you *can* use the DOCTYPE everywhere *if* you want your templates to validate
[03:47:21] <cmlenz> and show up correctly when viewed directly
[03:47:44] <asmodai> *nod*
[03:47:47] <cmlenz> if you *don't* care about that (the common case), you just tell the serializer what DOCTYPE to use in the application code, and omit it from the templates
[03:48:26] <cmlenz> I haven't updated the Trac port to do that yet
[03:48:49] <asmodai> Ah right.
[03:48:52] <asmodai> Nice.
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[04:07:28] <asmodai> cmlenz: which has precedence at the moment if two files exist? .cs or .html? :)
[04:11:24] <asmodai> cmlenz: mmm
[04:11:28] <asmodai> cmlenz: http://trac.in-nomine.org:81/trac/about
[04:13:38] <angrymike> hi all, has anyone used the trac packages at: http://packman.links2linux.org/?action=781
[04:13:48] <angrymike> they are for Suse
[04:14:15] * asmodai goes hunting what this bool issue is
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[04:31:48] <mitsuhiko> cmlenz: markup looks great
[04:32:15] <mitsuhiko> cmlenz: but it would be even better if it would be possible to have sandboxed templates (no python code execution)
[04:33:02] <cmlenz> I don't agree... well, if there existed sandboxed execution in python maybe
[04:33:21] <cmlenz> but one thing I definitely not want is some crippled expression language like TALES or the django stuff
[04:45:58] * asmodai cripples cmlenz
[04:46:33] <mitsuhiko> cmlenz: django template language isn't crippled
[04:47:11] <cmlenz> hmm, try {% if foo == 'bar' %} ;-)
[04:47:36] <cmlenz> ah, no, I need {% ifequal foo "bar" %}
[04:47:53] <cmlenz> oh, now what if I want "foo > 3"... create a custom tag :-P
[04:47:59] <cmlenz> I call that crippled
[04:49:16] <idnar> I don't personally like mixing code into my template files, which is probably why I'm so fond of Nevow
[04:53:19] <cmlenz> IMO nevow moves way to much of the presentation logic into python code
[04:53:34] <cmlenz> resulting in tight coupling between the controllers and the templates
[04:53:42] <cmlenz> if that kind of logic even applies to nevow
[04:53:44] <cmlenz> :-Ü
[04:54:24] <idnar> I consider that a good thing ;)
[04:55:00] <cmlenz> we'll have to agree that we disagree there then ;-)
[04:55:17] <idnar> well, yeah, to each his own
[04:55:33] <idnar> I like to write my python code in python source files, XHTML in XHTML files, JavaScript in JS files, CSS in CSS files, etc.
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[05:03:49] * moisei is now known as Moisei
[05:03:56] <Moisei> hi. anybody is round?
[05:04:00] <Moisei> =around
[05:07:08] <Moisei> I would like to move my pachae server that running trac to another machine. is there some tool that helps me to mograte trac as well?
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[05:27:06] <asmodai> just copy the trac dir in its entirety
[05:27:48] <asmodai> and of course install trac on the bother box
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[06:41:04] <Sonderblade> does the trac wiki support redirect links?
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[06:58:48] <Moisei> asmodai - what about wiki?
[06:58:58] <Moisei> how do i migrate the lages?
[06:59:01] <Moisei> =the pages?
[07:01:30] <asmodai> AFAIK they're all in the database.
[07:01:44] <asmodai> trac/db/trac.db by default
[07:01:50] <Moisei> anybody? how to migrate trac wiki pages when trac is migrated to another server?
[07:09:32] <otaku42> Moisei: trac-admin <path_to_your_trac_environment> hotcopy <path_to_backup>, then copy the backup to the other server and use it as environment there?
[07:10:15] <otaku42> Moisei: if that is not what you want: trac-admin provides commands to save wiki pages to a file and create wiki pages out of a file.
[07:12:01] <mitsuhiko> cmlenz: just don't put login into program code
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[07:36:54] <tic> nevow is yum
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[07:49:48] <cmlenz> I've got a challenge for all you nevow fans: implement the benchmark example here: http://markup.edgewall.org/browser/trunk/examples/bench/run.py#L91
[07:50:29] <tuxipuxi> the colours of the report views can not be configured, except in the templates itself, right?
[07:51:04] <cmlenz> I think they're actually hard coded in the report SQL
[07:51:27] <cmlenz> the colors in *queries* can be customized via CSS
[07:53:54] <tuxipuxi> ah i see, thanks
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[08:03:04] <tuxipuxi> cmlenz: uhm, wasn't there an option to change the date formatting?
[08:03:41] <cmlenz> http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracFaq#how-do-i-change-the-format-used-for-displaying-date-and-time
[08:04:58] <tuxipuxi> thanks!
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[08:09:04] <tuxipuxi> cmlenz: it would be much better if this was a setting in trac.ini. any chance to get this in 0.10?
[08:09:27] <cmlenz> nope :-)
[08:09:41] <cmlenz> 0.11 is supposed to be the release with improve i18n
[08:09:46] <tuxipuxi> damn
[08:09:56] <cmlenz> you can't imagine how much internationalized date formatting sucks in Python
[08:10:05] <tuxipuxi> guess 0.11's release is still far away?
[08:10:12] <cmlenz> yes
[08:10:34] <cmlenz> so whats the problem with LC_TIME anyway?
[08:10:47] <tuxipuxi> i'd think that it's just passing the trac.ini date format like dd/mm/yyyy to a python date formatting method?
[08:11:20] <tuxipuxi> the problem is that i'm using mod_macro and thus can't/don't want to change per-project settings in the apache configuration
[08:11:44] <cmlenz> well, add another macro var ;-)
[08:12:13] <tuxipuxi> this would require changes in other scripts as well, unfortunately ;)
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[09:15:39] <jtoy> there a way to set trac so that the default permissions is that everyone is TRAC_ADMIN ?
[09:16:05] <pacopablo> authenticated users I take it?
[09:16:20] <pacopablo> trac-admin /path/to/env permission add authenticated TRAC_ADMIN
[09:16:43] <pacopablo> you could add TRAC_ADMIN to anonymous, but then I think you'd probably be crazy.
[09:19:56] * matt_good has joined #trac
[09:24:47] <jtoy> oh yeah, set to anonymous
[09:24:59] <jtoy> pacopablo: we are suing inhouse fora couple of developers
[09:25:54] <jtoy> is there a way to set TRAC_ADMIN for authenitcated users but not anonymous users?
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[09:34:09] <coderanger_> jtoy: Look at the anonymous vs. authenticated groups
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[09:44:52] <pacopablo> jtoy: use the line that I posted
[09:45:39] <jtoy> oh ok, I didnt know authenticated was a macro/var
[09:46:40] <pacopablo> it's a built in group
[09:46:45] <pacopablo> linke anonymous
[09:46:51] <pacopablo> er, like, even
[09:46:58] <pacopablo> @faq logging
[09:46:58] <evil_twin> pacopablo: "logging" is http://projects.edgewall.com/trac/wiki/TracLogging <-- Enable debug logging to file, ensure your environments log/ directory is writeable by your web server user, check for errors.
[09:47:03] <pacopablo> thanks evil_twin
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[09:56:01] <alect> morning
[09:56:06] <pacopablo> morning
[09:56:47] <alect> how's the ups saga going?
[09:57:26] <pacopablo> poorly
[09:57:45] <pacopablo> I now only have my server on the UPS, nothing else plugged into the unit
[09:57:52] <pacopablo> and it still went down yesterday morning
[09:58:12] <pacopablo> so far it hasn't died today, which is kind of good
[09:58:23] <pacopablo> but I'll probably call tech support again after work and complain
[10:07:58] <alect> man that is sucky
[10:08:00] * simmerz has quit IRC
[10:08:07] <pacopablo> mucho sucky
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[10:10:48] <alect> so....markup eh
[10:11:28] * pacopablo still wants to see a bit more flexible templating ssytem
[10:11:50] <pacopablo> so that some can use markup and other can use cheetah, stan, or whatever
[10:11:59] <alect> yeah
[10:12:06] <alect> i suspect that's not gonna happen
[10:12:35] <coderanger_> Its doable in plugins, just not easy
[10:12:43] <pacopablo> TracIStan :)
[10:12:51] <pacopablo> except that isn't even the ideal
[10:13:01] <pacopablo> it's slightly nicer as it can include CS templates
[10:13:13] <pacopablo> but the reverse isn't true.
[10:13:48] <alect> i'd guess that the only support, if any, will be backwards compat for clearsilver
[10:13:58] <pacopablo> since markup is a stream processor, shouldn't it be able to grab the output of some other "plugin" and insert it into it's stream?
[10:14:49] <pacopablo> I wonder if the XPath support can be extended/mutated to support including of other templates
[10:15:07] <alect> you can add custom commands to markup
[10:15:13] <alect> but cmlenz didn't seem to like that idea
[10:15:23] * cmlenz has joined #trac
[10:15:26] <alect> but that doesn't mean you can't do it ;)
[10:15:26] <pacopablo> well, we'll just have to work on him a bit :)
[10:15:30] <pacopablo> speak of the devil!
[10:15:32] <alect> speak of the devil
[10:15:33] <alect> haha
[10:15:41] <pacopablo> his ears must have been burning
[10:16:28] * ContingencyPlan has quit IRC
[10:16:38] <alect> parallels makes my whole system run like a dog
[10:16:56] * raidman|Away is now known as raidman
[10:16:58] <alect> an old crotchety dog
[10:19:06] <pacopablo> parallels?
[10:20:30] <jborg> alect, really? I'm very impressed by the speed of parallels myself.
[10:21:01] <pacopablo> must be an OSeX thing
[10:21:23] <jborg> pacopablo, http://parallels.com/
[10:22:25] <pacopablo> ahh
[10:25:18] * contingencyplan has joined #trac
[10:25:18] <alect> i'm running two at once
[10:25:28] <alect> it just crashed my system entirely in fact
[10:25:34] * alect mutters under his breath
[10:27:15] <alect> one seems okay
[10:27:20] <alect> two...not so much
[10:28:10] <jborg> okay, I've never tried two at once.
[10:31:00] <alect> FUCCCCCCCkkkkkkkkkk, and now .mail has lost all my settings and mailboxes
[10:31:08] <pacopablo> woohoo! :)
[10:31:20] <alect> mail.app sucks of the arse
[10:32:43] <contingencyplan> Question for y'all: I'm trying to write a "universal login" system in PHP that integrates with Mediawiki, SMF, and Trac. The first two are easy enough (since they're also written in PHP). Is it possible to write a PHP script to interact with Trac's python stuff (namely the login aspect)?
[10:33:23] <coderanger_> Not easy
[10:34:06] <pacopablo> shouldn't be too hard
[10:34:19] <pacopablo> though it would require writing a custom login plugin in trac
[10:34:20] <xjjk> why are you writing it in PHP
[10:34:29] <pacopablo> with the account manager plugin interface
[10:34:39] <pacopablo> xjjk: some people like pain :)
[10:34:39] <coderanger_> pacopablo: How would you make a login plugin in PHP
[10:34:42] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, well, writing our own plugin shouldn't be too difficult?
[10:34:43] <xjjk> the trac portion, that is
[10:34:48] <xjjk> if you're writing it on your own
[10:34:53] <xjjk> why not write a separate python version?
[10:35:01] <contingencyplan> xjjk, well, is there a way to interface PHP with Python through mod_python?
[10:35:09] <pacopablo> coderanger_: just write it to respect the cookie created and placed on the client from the php app
[10:35:18] <xjjk> contingencyplan: not really... I guess you could resert to SOAP/XML-RPC/something
[10:35:32] <xjjk> resort*
[10:35:41] <coderanger_> pacopablo: Ahh, you will need to use Python for the Trac part though
[10:35:51] <pacopablo> coderanger_: oh, right
[10:36:06] <pacopablo> that's obvious, but then the PHP part wouldn't be too hard
[10:36:34] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, so assuming that you can write a plugin in trac for the login part, how would you hook into it in a PHP script?
[10:36:51] <pacopablo> contingencyplan: take a look at the account manager plugin and it's interfaces
[10:37:03] <contingencyplan> k
[10:37:04] <pacopablo> but the idea is to have it respect a cookie that is created by the php app
[10:37:42] <pacopablo> so the php app would create the cookie, and then when they access trac, it looks at siad cookie and says: "oh, you're authed already"
[10:37:48] <contingencyplan> Okay, gotcha.
[10:38:24] <contingencyplan> interesting.
[10:38:35] <contingencyplan> As another question - the subversion trunk for trac is 0.10, right?
[10:38:39] <contingencyplan> If not, where can I get that version?
[10:39:20] <xjjk> contingencyplan: it is
[10:39:46] <coderanger_> Or to be precise, it will 0.10 at some point
[10:40:04] <contingencyplan> right - but it's the most recent. I'm working with somebody who said it wasn't, that it was 0.9,6.
[10:40:56] <coderanger_> trunk is always "the most recent"
[10:41:06] <contingencyplan> I thought so - figured he was smoking crack or something.
[10:41:09] <coderanger_> though there are a bazillion sandboxes and branches
[10:41:19] <contingencyplan> right.
[10:41:32] <contingencyplan> I'll check where he checked it out from - maybe he checked it out from branches or something.
[10:41:45] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, what information is stored in the cookie? Do you know offhand?
[10:42:18] <pacopablo> contingencyplan: not off hand
[10:42:21] <coderanger_> random string that is in index into the session table
[10:42:31] <pacopablo> contingencyplan: take a look at the form login stuff in acocunt manager
[10:42:44] <pacopablo> or just extract it from coderanger_ :)
[10:43:10] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, gotcha - just trying to get a plan of attack beforehand. My co-worker is ready to scrap Trac because it's can't hook into PHP session variables.
[10:43:27] <pacopablo> bah! :)
[10:43:38] <pacopablo> what session variables are you talking about?
[10:43:59] <coderanger_> PHP's session system makes baby jesus cry
[10:44:10] <pacopablo> hehe
[10:45:12] * peppelorum has joined #trac
[10:45:16] <contingencyplan> coderanger, heh
[10:45:50] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, well, that's just it - Mediawiki and SMF are written in PHP (obviously), so the UL (universal login) script just sets the required session variables for both of those on successful authentication.
[10:46:09] <contingencyplan> He doesn't see a way to set a session variable in Python from within a PHP script.
[10:46:34] <pacopablo> the session variables are contained in a cookie, no?
[10:46:46] <pacopablo> or db, indexed by id in cookie?
[10:46:53] <coderanger_> pacopablo: "its magic"
[10:47:00] * pacopablo has been out of PHP for a while now
[10:47:29] <pacopablo> contingencyplan: you could find out how PHP does it, and then just write a trac plugin to grab the same info
[10:47:48] <contingencyplan> pacopablo, how so?
[10:48:14] <pacopablo> depends on how PHP stores it's session variables, etc
[10:48:17] <contingencyplan> I think the session data is just stored internal - it's lost when you exit the browser. No cookies yet.
[10:48:22] <pacopablo> but it's got to be via cookie some how :)
[10:48:49] <pacopablo> contingencyplan: there has to be a cookie someplace, or else there is now way for an app to trac sessions
[10:48:54] <pacopablo> HTTP is stateless
[10:49:16] <pacopablo> very well could be a session cookie, though, but it's a cookie nonetheless
[10:49:21] <contingencyplan> I'll check, but I don't know of anything that's using cookies. :-?
[10:49:42] <pacopablo> my guess is that it uses cookies behind the scenes
[10:49:57] <pacopablo> or else it passes a session ID via GET or POST parameters
[10:50:02] <contingencyplan> The latter.
[10:50:14] <pacopablo> so it's via GET?
[10:50:22] <contingencyplan> It's through POST (iirc), but yeah.
[10:50:37] <pacopablo> then if you can get it to send the same ID to trac, then trac can use said ID.
[10:50:58] <contingencyplan> but that's the thing - how do I get it to send that to Trac
[10:50:59] <pacopablo> via your custom plugin, of course :)
[10:51:21] <contingencyplan> but what would that plugin do? how would it grab stuff from PHP, or allow PHP to stick stuff in there?
[10:51:42] <contingencyplan> Would it still just write the data to the trac_session cookie, and let Trac grab it from there?
[10:53:39] <coderanger_> Or your own cookie
[10:53:50] <coderanger_> And then let Trac populate its cookie from that
[10:53:58] <contingencyplan> hrm.
[10:54:02] <contingencyplan> okay.
[10:54:44] <coderanger_> Take a look at how the TracCas plugin works
[10:54:51] <contingencyplan> that on trac-hacks?
[10:54:54] <coderanger_> yep
[10:55:10] <coderanger_> it just hijacks the small piece of the login process it needs to change
[10:55:31] <coderanger_> And since it subclasses LoginModule, you get the normal behavior for free
[10:55:32] <contingencyplan> interesting. Lemme look, just a sec
[10:55:35] <contingencyplan> right
[10:55:37] * coderanger_ ->Home
[10:55:42] * coderanger_ has quit IRC
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