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September 24, 2006

[00:00:01] <s0undt3ch> that's the way to go untill ctxnav is not hardcoded
[00:00:13] <s0undt3ch> alect: yeah, how many months???
[00:00:20] <alect> 2.51
[00:00:41] <s0undt3ch> for genshi to be merged? yeah, right!
[00:01:00] <s0undt3ch> funny man
[00:01:39] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: Thats not unreasonable
[00:01:45] <coderanger> 0.10 is slated for tomorrow
[00:01:55] <coderanger> and Genshi should get merged pretty soon after
[00:02:22] <s0undt3ch> no, it ain't
[00:02:40] <Gruf_> hehe rc1 friday, release monday... no muckin about there
[00:02:47] <s0undt3ch> but I wonder if it will take just "2.51" months :)
[00:02:50] <alect> and, although i hesitate to say it, ilias' ranting and cboos' response are compelling
[00:03:01] <alect> "no, it ain't" ... what ain't?
[00:03:13] <s0undt3ch> unreasonable
[00:03:21] <alect> ah
[00:03:41] <s0undt3ch> I'm countind days witing for it actually
[00:03:46] <s0undt3ch> *counting
[00:03:56] <s0undt3ch> have I ever said I hate CS?
[00:04:02] <s0undt3ch> hmm, yes
[00:06:19] * Rica has joined #trac
[00:12:18] <coderanger> hah, Ilias responded to my last comment
[00:12:22] <s0undt3ch> Exception exceptions.AssertionError: <exceptions.AssertionError instance at 0xb6c1bdcc> in <bound method PooledConnection.__del__ of <trac.db.pool.PooledConnection object at 0xb6c0e3ec>> ignored
[00:12:38] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: Theres a ticket about that
[00:12:41] <alect> exarkun was having that same problem
[00:12:43] <coderanger> update to the latest trunk
[00:13:01] <coderanger> cboos had said he thought he fixed
[00:13:10] <s0undt3ch> heh, that is 0.10b1
[00:13:16] <s0undt3ch> lemme try rc1
[00:13:25] * __ has quit IRC
[00:16:33] <s0undt3ch> seems to have stopped with rc1
[00:16:50] <s0undt3ch> oh, and that was just a virtual python setup
[00:16:55] <s0undt3ch> production is using rc1
[00:17:26] <coderanger> s0undt3ch uses old versions. Shun him!!!!
[00:18:27] <s0undt3ch> well, usualy I run trunk on production :)
[00:19:06] <coderanger> shun shun sun
[00:19:48] <angrymike> coderanger: all went well, thanks for the help
[00:20:10] <coderanger> angrymike: If it still happens a lot, look at switching to Postgres
[00:20:17] <coderanger> there is a migration script on trac-hacks
[00:21:02] <angrymike> coderander: will do
[00:21:30] <angrymike> s/coderander/coderanger :$
[00:21:57] <blake_> randycoder
[00:26:10] * __ has joined #trac
[00:26:19] * coderanger is not touching that with a 30 foot pole
[00:26:44] * blake_ agrees, and he said it
[00:28:11] <coderanger> Wow, Ilias just asked Jonas to delay the 0.10 release " I like to do some tests, too, but can
[00:28:12] <coderanger> start testing only tomorrow."
[00:28:26] <alect> hahah
[00:29:12] <coderanger> I mean I'm all for more testers, but someone's ego is just a teensey bit inflated
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[01:07:13] <coderanger> ProgrammingError: Cannot operate on a closed database.
[01:07:25] <coderanger> Just upgraded to the latest trunk and now I'm seeing that
[01:08:45] * asmodai blinks
[01:08:53] <asmodai> This is bizarre with IE 7
[01:09:33] <asmodai> I created a logo with a background colour the same as I specify for another region with background-color in CSS.
[01:09:44] <asmodai> Yet pitted next to each other, the colour differs.
[01:10:33] <omry> googlebot is indexing my reports!
[01:10:38] <omry> which are slow as hell :
[01:10:39] <omry> :)
[01:10:51] <omry> you guys did anything about trac in the robots.txt?
[01:11:02] <coderanger> omry: I havne't had to in general
[01:11:33] <omry> coderanger: you think its not needed to exclude some dynamic parts?
[01:11:52] <omry> say, revision history and god knows what
[01:12:03] <coderanger> No, but then I've got Apache tuned to run Trac very well, and the server is pretty fast
[01:13:20] <omry> performence is not the only reason to disallow some sections. it will also help searches to find the right stuff.
[01:13:47] <coderanger> Well trac already blocks bots from things like old versions of files and wiki pages
[01:14:14] <omry> why block from wiki pages?
[01:14:22] <omry> how does it block?
[01:14:29] <coderanger> because it should only index the most recent version
[01:14:35] <omry> oh
[01:14:36] <omry> right.
[01:15:34] <omry> okay.. just wanted to know trac does the right thing here.
[01:15:50] <coderanger> it uses the meta robots tag
[01:16:04] <omry> meta robots?
[01:16:10] <coderanger> <meta name="ROBOTS" content="NOINDEX, NOFOLLOW" />
[01:16:32] <omry> cool
[01:16:35] <omry> didn't know about it
[01:16:41] <omry> its very relevant to my project.
[01:16:57] <omry> well, somewhat relevant.
[01:16:58] <coderanger> hmm?
[01:17:14] <omry> FireStats has a mechanism to filter bots.
[01:17:21] <coderanger> ahh
[01:17:33] <omry> and I plan to add bad bot detection in the future
[01:17:44] <coderanger> it is of course discretionary on the part of the bot
[01:17:51] <omry> spam bots usually ignore robots.txt, so you can put a bot-trap there.
[01:17:55] <asmodai> mmm, new Opera version
[01:18:34] <omry> http://www.robotstxt.org/wc/meta-user.html
[01:18:39] <omry> Note: Currently only few robots support this tag!
[01:19:09] <coderanger> most search bots do
[01:19:39] <omry> well at least those that count :)
[01:19:53] <omry> s
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[01:24:02] <s0undt3ch> dam opera is fast
[01:25:06] * coderanger likes Shiira
[01:25:32] <asmodai> shiira?
[01:25:46] <asmodai> mmm *puts Ilias on ignore on the lists*
[01:26:01] <coderanger> OS X browser, based on WebKit (i.e. Safari)
[01:27:02] <asmodai> ah ok
[01:27:54] <s0undt3ch> ha ha, but opera ignores some css properties
[01:29:24] <s0undt3ch> bahhh asmodai look at <legend> tags on fieldsets, uggly http://wikitemplates.ufsoft.org/templates
[01:29:36] * Jeena has quit IRC
[01:29:51] <asmodai> s0undt3ch: But MS treats those empty ones different as well.
[01:29:58] <s0undt3ch> but it's dam fast
[01:30:32] <s0undt3ch> asmodai: I only use what's strictly necessary from MS, IE ain't one, and only at work :)
[01:30:45] * Jeena has joined #trac
[01:30:56] <s0undt3ch> oh, which empty ones?
[01:31:11] <asmodai> s0undt3ch: http://ln-s.net/E$w
[01:31:11] <Jeena> http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html Opera can the most of the CSS stuff, mor than even Firefox
[01:31:49] <s0undt3ch> Jeena: aparently not
[01:31:52] <asmodai> Jeena: I prefer http://www.webdevout.net/
[01:31:59] <s0undt3ch> asmodai: I get redirected elsewere
[01:32:30] <Jeena> hm i should try iCab
[01:32:33] <asmodai> s0undt3ch: yes, the URL was too long
[01:32:43] <asmodai> and it seems the blogs.msdn.com site is being down/weird
[01:33:21] <asmodai> s0undt3ch: but it details the legend thinghy
[01:34:02] <asmodai> And luckily IE 7 will fix a bunch of memory leaks and more with the JavaScript engine they have
[01:34:30] <s0undt3ch> bah IE
[01:34:31] * asmodai wonders if IE is taking the image and applying the background-color
[01:34:45] <s0undt3ch> well, need to get some rest
[01:34:58] <asmodai> Ranting drains a person. :)
[01:41:07] <asmodai> OMFG
[01:41:10] <asmodai> http://www.in-nomine.org/~asmodai/strange.png
[01:41:17] * Jeena has quit IRC
[01:41:20] <asmodai> Seems IE has a bug with PNG handling.
[01:41:44] <asmodai> I just viewed the snapshot I took in IE again and it *again* darkened the colours.
[01:42:16] <asmodai> Original colour is #ddbfa6
[01:42:33] <asmodai> it darkened it in the png to #d9b89d
[01:43:03] <asmodai> the snapsnot of that in IE shows the colours as: #d9d89d and #d4b093
[01:43:49] * asmodai wonders if this is only PNG8
[01:46:42] <asmodai> ah http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/02/18/png-color-oddities-in-ie/
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[02:58:05] <asmodai> The IE development team sucks.
[02:58:06] * asmodai was ready to cut them *some* slack with IE 7, but nope.
[02:58:10] <asmodai> jborg: morn
[03:04:34] <jborg> asmodai, morning
[03:04:55] <The_Tick> asmodai: oh, so no more slack from you on it
[03:05:01] <asmodai> The_Tick: No.
[03:05:03] <asmodai> The_Tick: :)
[03:05:10] <The_Tick> are you going to chastise them in front of their mothers?
[03:05:11] <coderanger> jborg: Ready for releasey goodness? :)
[03:05:18] <asmodai> The_Tick: I mean, they keep shoving blame away.
[03:05:33] <The_Tick> asmodai: maybe everyone should stop making these new fangled standards
[03:05:36] <asmodai> The_Tick: this wrt the PNG gamma issue.
[03:05:43] <The_Tick> and just stick with gif and tiff and be done with it
[03:06:08] <The_Tick> I know, I know, javamlss is the wave of the future, but really, was mosaic so bad?
[03:06:11] <coderanger> The_Tick: Because clearly everyone should pay buckets of money to unisys ;-)
[03:06:20] <asmodai> png is unencumbered.
[03:06:22] <The_Tick> coderanger: damned right
[03:06:31] <The_Tick> asmodai: uh huh
[03:06:44] <The_Tick> coderanger: I don't think he gets it
[03:07:11] <asmodai> }:)
[03:07:23] <asmodai> jborg / coderanger: btw
[03:07:36] <asmodai> jborg / coderanger: setuptools updating can suck when you have a new svn installed.
[03:07:45] <The_Tick> seriously though, what use is a standard that not everyone follows? ;)
[03:07:50] <asmodai> jborg / coderanger: seems you need to update setuptools first and then move to svn 1.4.0
[03:07:57] <The_Tick> if the majority holder doesn't follow it, it isn't standard, heh
[03:07:59] * The_Tick goes to bed
[03:08:01] <asmodai> jborg / coderanger: otherwise your setuptools keeps dying.
[03:08:03] <coderanger> yeah, I had to download the new setuptools egg manually
[03:08:08] <asmodai> coderanger: *nod*
[03:09:13] <coderanger> Someone who has 2.5 installed should probably add a section to the FAQ about it
[03:10:00] <jborg> asmodai, I'm not sure I follow, do you need a certain version of setuptools installed before you can install svn 1.4.0?
[03:10:22] * prologic has quit IRC
[03:10:25] <coderanger> jborg: Versions prior to 0.6c3 are not compatible with the new WC format
[03:10:46] <coderanger> This makes some things grumpy
[03:11:01] <asmodai> resulting in an attribute traceback
[03:11:36] <jborg> ok
[03:12:03] <asmodai> but it also meant I couldnt install, say, genshi
[03:12:19] <asmodai> since setup.py > setuptools failed then as well
[03:12:21] <asmodai> IIRC
[03:12:28] <coderanger> asmodai: If you install from a a non-WC folder it should work
[03:12:44] <asmodai> oh ok, so the svn checkout I had was the culprit
[03:12:47] <asmodai> tarballs should be ok then
[03:12:48] <coderanger> The problem is when it detects it is in a WC, but can't grok the new file structure
[03:13:21] <coderanger> yes, as should an svn export
[03:20:17] * cmlenz has joined #trac
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[03:29:19] <coderanger> mental note: Don't send emails at this hour of morning
[03:30:14] <omry> coderanger: can you please edit my email in the bug report ( http://trac.edgewall.org/ticket/3779 ) to omry at yadan dot net?
[03:30:30] <coderanger> omry: I do not have any special access on there
[03:30:37] <coderanger> Only trac-hacks
[03:30:39] * prologic has joined #trac
[03:30:39] <omry> oh, ok.
[03:30:42] <omry> who does?
[03:30:52] <coderanger> Any of the devs
[03:31:02] <coderanger> jborg and cmlenz are around now it seems
[03:31:27] <cmlenz> bah, get a spam filter :-P
[03:31:54] <omry> cmlenz: got 10. but still :)
[03:31:55] <coderanger> omry: That will stop you from getting change notifications anyway
[03:32:07] <omry> right, I`ll just check manually
[03:32:14] <omry> can I have a user there?
[03:32:16] <coderanger> omry: And most spambots will decode that
[03:32:50] <cmlenz> spambots are more stupid then we think
[03:32:54] <asmodai> cmlenz: Problem wrt i18n is that it was agreed to wait until genshi was integrated and released, no?
[03:32:55] <coderanger> omry: Logins are only given to devs
[03:32:59] <cmlenz> some may decode that, but I think the majority is thrown off
[03:33:37] <s0undt3ch> get a spambot poisener
[03:33:47] <omry> okay, so away_bot@omry at yadan.net :)
[03:33:50] <cmlenz> omry: done
[03:33:52] <omry> that will confuse them all.
[03:34:00] <s0undt3ch> http://english-53700096725.spampoison.com/
[03:34:20] <omry> spam poision is a great idea.
[03:34:23] <omry> cmlenz: thanks
[03:35:34] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: Make a plugin :)
[03:36:25] <omry> coderanger: actaully that's a good idea :)
[03:36:46] <omry> not just for trac.
[03:38:00] <omry> yay. 280 FirStats downloads.
[03:38:15] <omry> guys, no one here wants to know anything about users accessing his trac?
[03:38:34] <coderanger> I use google analytics
[03:38:48] <omry> ah, the all mighty google analytics.
[03:39:02] <coderanger> Eh, I don't like it very much
[03:39:09] <omry> http://firefang.net/projects/firestats/wiki/GAPrivacy
[03:39:11] <coderanger> but it easy, and simple to give multiple people access to
[03:39:17] <omry> read this, you will like it less.
[03:41:43] <coderanger> heh, that the same reason I won't use things like google calendar
[03:42:00] <omry> at least not for what matters
[03:42:01] <omry> yes.
[03:42:19] <omry> I dislike google calander too for that reason.
[03:42:26] <omry> but here at least I know what I am doing.
[03:42:40] <omry> when I access some site that uses google analytics, I have no idea.
[03:42:52] <omry> (well, I do, but most people don't)
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[03:44:26] <coderanger> At some point I will probably switch to something like analog, but for now, this works
[03:44:50] <omry> you are invited to give firestats a shot.
[03:44:56] <coderanger> I don't want the overhead
[03:45:10] <coderanger> both for each each request, and the managerial overhead
[03:45:18] <coderanger> since I have ~50 Tracs on here I think
[03:45:50] <omry> I see.
[03:45:59] <coderanger> Its a lot easier to base things off the Apache logs, since thats centralized, and contains all the data even when I add/remove tracs
[03:46:25] <omry> well, this is not the typical use case I am targeting.
[03:46:39] <coderanger> I am rarely a typical use case ;-)
[03:46:46] <omry> :)
[03:47:09] <omry> anyway, I am sure you already have scripts to mass deploy plugins.
[03:47:27] <coderanger> Apache has some pretty powerful logging systems on its own anyway
[03:47:31] <omry> you can try it on a single trac, and see if you like the results.
[03:47:50] <omry> like visitors?
[03:48:04] <coderanger> things like clickstream tracking are built-in
[03:48:36] <coderanger> mod_uniqueid + mod_usertrack for example
[03:48:43] <omry> my main audience are bloggers, which usually can't control their apache.
[03:48:54] <coderanger> yeah
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[03:50:54] <coderanger> I will never understand how people can live with shared hosting, it would drive me up a wall
[03:51:41] <asmodai> coderanger: hahah, same here.
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[03:55:00] <omry> coderanger: I host my box in my living room
[03:55:08] <omry> speaking on 24h support :)
[03:55:12] <omry> btw: http://firefang.net/projects/firestats/wiki/trac
[03:55:30] <omry> FireStats trac integration instructions, if anyone is interested.
[03:57:25] <omry> I`m out, ttyl.
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[04:44:57] <asmodai> Jesus, next thing we know Ilias will start to claim he invented Genshi :)
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[05:02:30] <coderanger> I don't see what the problem with a stretched out merge is
[05:02:53] <coderanger> I don't intend to port to Genshi until 0.11 is at the same level of stability as 0.10's trunk was
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[05:20:50] <entropy> hi, i've recently moved all my projects to trac and I have a serious problem with spam being logged as tickets :(
[05:21:04] <entropy> can anyone suggest a solution for me?
[05:22:43] <coderanger> Do you have spamfilter installed?
[05:23:11] <jborg> http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/SpamFilter
[05:23:24] <coderanger> you can also install AccountManager and force people to register for accounts first
[05:25:33] <entropy> i have trac 0.9.6
[05:25:43] <entropy> not 10-dev
[05:25:45] <coderanger> upgrade :)
[05:25:53] <entropy> that's not an option
[05:25:59] <coderanger> why not?
[05:26:07] <coderanger> 0.10 is less than 24 hours from release
[05:26:08] <entropy> it's not my server
[05:26:15] <entropy> ok, then i will wait
[05:26:17] <entropy> :)
[05:26:37] <entropy> the server admin will not install anything that's not a "stable" release
[05:26:44] <entropy> thanks for that info
[05:28:05] <coderanger> accountmanager doesnt need 0.10 anyway
[05:31:22] <entropy> i don't really want account manager, i've looked at spamfilter, that's more for me
[05:31:31] <entropy> although a simple captcha would have been ideal
[05:31:53] <coderanger> we have had long long debates about captchas
[05:32:10] <entropy> heh, i'm sure
[05:32:16] <coderanger> its really not a good solution, though it may be only one that works in the long run
[05:32:50] <coderanger> they do horrible things wrt usability
[05:34:23] <entropy> not as bad as forcing an account manager
[05:34:49] <coderanger> Account registration uses only normal HTML forms
[05:35:09] <coderanger> And thus is compatible with things like braile readers
[05:36:13] <entropy> this is why it should be a plugin
[05:36:26] <coderanger> "feel free" ;-)
[05:36:30] <entropy> heh
[05:36:33] <entropy> bah
[05:36:45] <entropy> no thanks that would mean i'd have to code python *shudder* :P
[05:37:45] <entropy> hehe, don't take me seriously that was just meant as a jest, not a troll
[05:41:46] <coderanger> heh, we get a lot of that in here ;-)
[05:42:03] <alect> catpcha for the win!
[05:42:20] <coderanger> I'm really surprised no one has made some kind of insane ruby or PHP bindings
[05:42:35] <entropy> heh
[05:42:43] <entropy> jython!!
[05:43:08] <entropy> actually i think ruby bindings could be fun to do
[05:43:21] <entropy> via pyrex -> c bindings ->
[05:43:27] <entropy> ;)
[05:43:29] <coderanger> once we move to Genshi that may be doable (jython)
[05:43:48] <alect> svn won't work
[05:43:52] <coderanger> The java bindings for subversion could be adapted
[05:44:06] <coderanger> and a jdbc connector could be made
[05:44:30] <coderanger> alect: New repo backend plugin ;-)
[05:45:12] <coderanger> both bindings come from SWIG, so it probably wouldnt be that hard even
[05:46:33] <entropy> :O this spammer is so cheeky. i removed all URLs, marked invalid and closed it, 2 minutes later a new duplicate spam ticket was added
[05:47:00] <coderanger> entropy: Why not delete it?
[05:47:46] <entropy> er ... i've not found any way to delete tickets?
[05:47:54] <coderanger> TicketDelete plugin ;-)
[05:48:02] <entropy> sweet
[05:49:55] <entropy> is there a page on upgrading 0.9.6 to 0.10 online? is this even possible?
[05:50:04] <coderanger> TracUpgrade?
[05:50:06] <entropy> i really don't want to lose all that I've done so far
[05:50:33] <coderanger> the upgrade is basically seamless
[05:50:46] <coderanger> You just run trac-admin /path/to/env upgrade
[05:50:54] <entropy> ah, ok thank you, sorry about the newb/dumb questions ;)
[05:50:55] <entropy> oh
[05:51:01] <entropy> just like some plugins require :D
[05:52:06] <entropy> hmmf i'm going to need to script that I think
[05:52:15] <entropy> i already have 17 trac instances on my site
[05:52:42] <coderanger> heh
[05:53:36] <alect> tracforge
[05:53:54] <coderanger> alect: I don't know how well tracforge will be able to handle that
[05:54:03] <coderanger> maybe if you do the master env by hand
[05:54:26] <alect> does ticketdelete work with the master env?
[05:54:35] <alect> that would be interesting
[05:54:37] <coderanger> what do you mean?
[05:54:53] <alect> delete a ticket from the master, gets deleted from the slave
[05:55:00] <alect> or are tickets not replicated like that?
[05:55:07] <coderanger> ahh, with the subscription system
[05:55:08] <alect> tbh i've not tried it
[05:55:10] <coderanger> I forget
[05:55:17] <coderanger> If not, they should :)
[05:55:26] <alect> absolutely!
[06:05:58] <entropy> 38 tickets logged against various projects on my site in the last 24 hours. 1 of them is not spam
[06:06:12] <entropy> to give you an idea of the problem i have
[06:06:19] <coderanger> entropy: Yeah, thats about average
[06:06:20] <entropy> btw, thanks for TicketDelete :)
[06:20:05] <alect> coderanger: does ticket delete actually show up in the tickets now?
[06:20:10] <alect> should i upgrade it?
[06:20:15] <coderanger> alect: With 0.10. yes
[06:20:30] <coderanger> Though IE seems to get grumpy with some of the buttons
[06:20:45] <coderanger> matt did some shininess with jQuery
[06:20:51] <alect> it's not doing that on th...delete version is too old?
[06:20:56] <alect> i shall upgrdae
[06:22:37] <alect> aaaah
[06:22:40] <alect> that is awesome
[06:23:54] <alect> still not a real fan of the buttons above the line
[06:23:56] <alect> too late now!
[06:25:26] <coderanger> Heh
[06:25:59] <alect> on the spam topic, i infrequently got addcomment spam
[06:26:04] <coderanger> Hmm, do I do something right and make a plugin, or do it fast and make a hard-wired script
[06:26:33] <coderanger> Given the hour of morning, that second option is very tempting
[06:27:23] <alect> doit
[06:27:25] <alect> don't fight it
[06:27:53] <coderanger> But I know I'll have to do this again, and it would be useful to other people
[06:29:52] <alect> bed time, see ya
[06:30:26] <coderanger> When you are going to sleep, that means I probably should :)
[06:30:29] <coderanger> gnite
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[07:18:54] <entropy> ih
[07:19:05] <entropy> coderanger: i cannot use spamfilter ;)
[07:19:10] <coderanger> ?
[07:19:23] <entropy> i just tried a few trac sites using it
[07:19:28] <entropy> my own IP is blacklisted
[07:19:40] <coderanger> Askimet or one of th RBLs?
[07:20:00] <entropy> I get this message: IP "196.209.253.3" is blacklisted by "bsb.empty.us"
[07:20:26] <coderanger> RBL
[07:20:33] <coderanger> I would contact them ;-)
[07:20:43] <entropy> my IP is not static
[07:20:45] <coderanger> Spamfilter has multiple filters with it
[07:20:55] <coderanger> You can enable only the ones you want
[07:20:56] <entropy> nobody in south africa with ADSL gets static IP addresses
[07:21:21] <entropy> this sucks
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