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June 15, 2008

[00:00:29] <macmaN6789> how come i dont see a word about deploy on http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/TracInstall
[00:00:42] <coderanger> because those docs all suck
[00:00:52] <macmaN6789> :)
[00:01:05] <coderanger> See coderanger.net/~coderanger/tracdoc
[00:01:36] <coderanger> and my computer shits a brick 12 hours after running EvE, so now I must reboot, brb
[00:03:06] <macmaN6789> coderanger.net is on another machine?
[00:03:24] <coderanger> yes
[00:03:55] <macmaN6789> how does shitting a brick manifest itself?
[00:03:57] <macmaN6789> mac?
[00:04:09] * coderanger has quit IRC
[00:04:44] <alias2696> hi
[00:05:38] <aat> hehe
[00:05:46] <aat> that's a good question macma
[00:06:40] <macmaN6789> the nvidia macs have serious issues with the graphics driver or perhaps even hardware
[00:06:57] <macmaN6789> i have the nvidia mbp myself
[00:07:13] <macmaN6789> 1000 usd is what the thing is worth
[00:07:20] <macmaN6789> instead of 2500 what apple charges
[00:14:56] <asmodai> One reason I don't buy Apple gear.
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[00:26:16] <alias2696> anyone alive ? i have a gantt problem :)
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[00:34:29] <aat> speak your problem
[00:34:51] <alias2696> well i've installed the gannt charts
[00:34:56] <alias2696> it's enabled
[00:35:08] <alias2696> but i get an error when i try to enable in wiki
[00:35:39] <lisppaste5> alias2696 pasted "gantt" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/62248
[00:36:09] <alias2696> and in wiki i get
[00:36:10] <alias2696> AttributeError: ScannerError instance has no attribute 'message'
[00:36:33] <alias2696> i user trac 0.11b
[00:36:36] <alias2696> on centos
[00:45:35] <aat> mkay
[00:45:45] <alias2696> any ideea ?
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[00:46:34] <aat> where did you get that traceback from?
[00:46:36] <aat> it's very confusing
[00:46:51] <alias2696> logs
[00:46:52] <aat> and doesn't appear to have the actual error message
[00:46:57] <alias2696> oh sec
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[00:47:50] <lisppaste5> alias2696 annotated #62248 with "log" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/62248#1
[00:47:56] <alias2696> check now
[00:48:41] <aat> hmm, don't know
[00:48:48] <aat> does gantt plugin work under 0.11?
[00:49:11] <alias2696> it's loaded .. it dose not return an error
[00:49:23] <alias2696> but i supposed it dose
[00:49:44] <coderanger> macmaN6789: Its quite directly traceable to the mac EvE client
[00:49:45] <aat> from the README i would say no
[00:49:49] <coderanger> for me at least
[00:49:54] <aat> Released July 12, 2006
[00:50:18] <alias2696> can you give me a link ?
[00:50:30] <aat> http://willbarton.com/code/tracgantt/
[00:51:49] <alias2696> i don't see where it says it dose not work with .11
[00:52:20] <aat> it doesn't, but it doesn't say it *does* either
[00:52:22] <aat> which is more telling
[00:52:34] <alias2696> :)
[00:52:45] <coderanger> its very abandoned
[00:53:11] <alias2696> so there is no chance for me to get that woking in .11
[00:53:53] <alias2696> is there any other plugin that acts like gantt ?
[00:54:11] <coderanger> No
[00:54:35] <alias2696> ok, ty
[00:54:35] <alias2696> :)
[00:54:49] <coderanger> MasterTickets does depgraphs though
[00:55:10] <alias2696> i will try that
[00:58:51] <aat> i wish 2.5 were ubiquitous
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[01:48:09] <cheshair> hi everybody! i'm quite new to trac. i managed to have it up and running. i am very happy with that. i'm now supposed to enforce the svn+trac integration so that when i commit some new code in svn trac is aware of that. on the other hand, when i open a ticket i may somehow refer to svn code. the point is i've no sharp idea of how these ticket+svn integration really works, anyone who can give me some explanations or point me to some useful howtos?
[01:48:45] <coderanger> look at the two commit hook scripts in the contrib/ folder
[01:50:04] <cheshair> coderanger: ok, immediately, thanks!
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[02:00:35] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: got some mins?
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[02:02:56] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/70323/ <- this paste has both db_default and model; a catalog has messages; messages have locations; these are accessed by attributes(a la property), my question is sorting messages by their locations, can I do it like I'm using my model?
[02:03:55] <s0undt3ch> or anyone with some sql knowledge and used to using it in trac :)
[02:05:13] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: line 50, add an ORDER BY clause
[02:06:27] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: that's the thing or by? locations are on another table although each message has at least one location
[02:06:33] <s0undt3ch> err
[02:06:38] <s0undt3ch> s/or by/order by/
[02:06:55] <coderanger> so use a join
[02:07:17] <coderanger> you DB is poorly designed though
[02:07:38] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: I'm sure it is, never studied how to do it right, got some good pointers?
[02:08:06] <coderanger> for one, the whole "every table needs an auto-increment ID field" is a MySQLism
[02:08:24] <macmaN6789> coderanger yo
[02:08:27] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: at first it didn't, but for some parts of it I had to add it
[02:08:31] <macmaN6789> are you filevaulting yourself?
[02:08:50] <coderanger> sure make your primary key the actual composite identifier you need
[02:08:55] <coderanger> macmaN6789: No, this is a desktop
[02:09:50] <coderanger> also filevault is a dumb idea anyway, like all disk encryption systems
[02:10:06] <macmaN6789> whats your reasoning
[02:10:20] <macmaN6789> i would say i sleep a bit better having my shit truecrypted
[02:10:43] <coderanger> if my computer is stolen, one of two things can happen
[02:11:22] <coderanger> 1) the thief doesn't care about the data, and will sell it ASAP. disk encryption doesn't help since they don't care, and the buyer won't either
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[02:11:58] <coderanger> 2) the thief does care about my data, and they will probably just take me along with the computer, and ask "very nicely" for the password
[02:12:40] <macmaN6789> youre correct, password based approaches are weak
[02:12:52] <macmaN6789> and retail user scenario is mostly random theft
[02:12:56] <macmaN6789> not targeted interest
[02:13:07] <coderanger> I guess there is the threat model of people buying used computers in bulk to scan for personal data, but this seems much less likely than any of the multitude of identifty theft possibilities out there
[02:13:18] <coderanger> s/password/encryption key/ same thing
[02:13:40] <macmaN6789> apple's password based approach is probably the weakest available, since you cannot destroy a random key
[02:13:45] <macmaN6789> easily
[02:13:48] <macmaN6789> and lock it up for good
[02:13:50] <macmaN6789> if it comes to that
[02:14:04] <coderanger> biometrics are even stupider, then they have to take your finger or eye too
[02:14:07] <macmaN6789> but obviously it should work good enough to stop any random person from browsing your businnes intelligence
[02:14:48] <macmaN6789> yeah, im not feeling the eyetaking threat model too much
[02:14:49] <coderanger> basically a simple password is enough to keep out 99% of people, after that you hit a big fat wall of diminishing returns
[02:14:52] <macmaN6789> lets leaving at athat
[02:14:55] <macmaN6789> leave*
[02:15:00] <macmaN6789> its a sunny
[02:15:01] <macmaN6789> day
[02:15:05] <macmaN6789> dont want to think about those things
[02:15:07] <macmaN6789> :)
[02:15:22] <coderanger> then I wouldn't install a retina scanner on your laptop :)
[02:15:30] <macmaN6789> i wont
[02:15:56] <macmaN6789> but i have filevault
[02:15:57] <coderanger> disk encryption provides warm and fuzzy security, not real protection
[02:16:11] <macmaN6789> and obviously i gotta chmod +a "www allow this,that" for trac now
[02:16:21] <macmaN6789> TracError: The user _www requires read _and_ write permission to the database file
[02:16:32] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: another thing not yet in that db_layout is the translations table. The idea I'm having is, allow ppl to submit translations, this means that the same msgid can have several translations, then a translation admin, selects the one he see fit, these translations can also be voted for, to ease translation admin, and, comments entered by users(those who submit a translation) should also be stored. With this in mind and minifying the MySQLism of my c
[02:16:51] <macmaN6789> oh yeah, i will be interested in doing estonian translation for trac
[02:17:03] <macmaN6789> so ill be lookin into what the status of i18n is shortly for trac
[02:17:04] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: Have you looked at pootle's DB structure?
[02:17:13] <coderanger> I haven't, but it might be a good place to start
[02:17:26] <s0undt3ch> macmaN6789: talk to asmodai and ask to open a ticket for that if it's not open yet
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[02:17:32] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: can't seem to find the code
[02:17:43] <s0undt3ch> at least last time I checked
[02:17:57] <macmaN6789> word up
[02:18:05] <macmaN6789> i pootled around a bit a while back
[02:18:07] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: ah, and pootle does not store this stuff on db, they keep parsing the po files
[02:18:10] <macmaN6789> i think for wordpress purposes
[02:18:13] <macmaN6789> yes
[02:18:18] <macmaN6789> po-ing all the way
[02:18:23] <macmaN6789> i guess they po
[02:18:32] <macmaN6789> (im better than seinfeld, i know)
[02:18:33] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: my idea is not that one :)
[02:18:37] <coderanger> s0undt3ch: ouch, nevermind then
[02:19:02] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: they are planing to use an db but for stats!!!!
[02:19:31] <macmaN6789> you saying you cant find a db based translation engine?
[02:19:56] <s0undt3ch> macmaN6789: I probably have looked enough, but a simple googling for such, came empty :\
[02:20:08] <coderanger> macmaN6789: There are very few tools for doing translation portals
[02:20:14] <s0undt3ch> macmaN6789: remember that I need to have a look at the db layout of that engine
[02:20:22] <macmaN6789> obviously
[02:20:31] <macmaN6789> ok ill keep it mind
[02:20:34] <coderanger> macmaN6789: the only popular ones are Pootle and Canonical's Rosetta
[02:20:36] <macmaN6789> perhaps ill jump into the boat
[02:20:48] <macmaN6789> got the masters thesis done, now its time to improve the world
[02:20:48] <s0undt3ch> macmaN6789: where I said have looked I meant haven't looked
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[02:20:53] <macmaN6789> and trac comes first!
[02:20:54] <macmaN6789> :)
[02:21:07] <macmaN6789> yeah i know you did
[02:21:10] <macmaN6789> im clever like that
[02:21:16] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: yeah, and rosetta's code is not public either
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[02:27:02] <macmaN6789> hrm.
[02:27:07] <macmaN6789> the chmods are right
[02:27:21] <macmaN6789> and still python says user www requires permissions
[02:27:25] <macmaN6789> hrm
[02:27:57] <macmaN6789> oh nm
[02:28:08] <macmaN6789> i keep forgetting i have to set r/w on the file itself too
[02:28:10] <macmaN6789> not just ACLs
[02:36:09] <s0undt3ch> coderanger: id's is all you sugest to make my layout, not poor?
[02:36:39] <s0undt3ch> ie, removing those auto increment id's where not actually needed
[02:38:08] <macmaN6789> coderanger: how come the URLs under Available Projects dont end with /
[02:39:10] <coderanger> macmaN6789: Hmm?
[02:39:45] <macmaN6789> https://myserver/trac/project
[02:39:51] <macmaN6789> but i want /trac/project/
[02:39:58] <coderanger> because that would be wrong
[02:40:05] <macmaN6789> whyyyy
[02:40:15] <coderanger> A trailing slash implies the resource is a collection
[02:40:32] <macmaN6789> but it is
[02:40:35] <macmaN6789> wikis, images
[02:40:37] <macmaN6789> whatnot
[02:40:42] <coderanger> Thats an application
[02:40:47] <coderanger> Not a simple collection
[02:41:29] <macmaN6789> googling
[02:41:43] <coderanger> heh, its a hotly debated topic
[02:42:34] <macmaN6789> Use trailing slashes for directories because that is the correct way of doing things.
[02:42:39] <macmaN6789> from davidroessli
[02:42:49] <macmaN6789> and the projects definitely are directories
[02:42:51] <coderanger> And a trac project isn't a directory
[02:43:02] <coderanger> A Trac project is a resource
[02:43:02] <macmaN6789> its a combination of the directory and database
[02:43:13] <cheshair> coderanger: if i got it, the pre-commit-hook just check if you reference to an open issue in your svn comment and just abort if you didn't.
[02:43:18] <macmaN6789> well then why do we not have /trac/project?wiki=
[02:43:23] <macmaN6789> and we have /trac/project/wiki/
[02:43:30] <coderanger> It exists independently of the things it contains
[02:43:36] <coderanger> A folder does not
[02:44:01] <coderanger> macmaN6789: That should be trimmed automatically
[02:44:22] <coderanger> interesting, thats a bug :)
[02:44:42] <coderanger> it trims project/wiki/page/, but not just project/wiki/
[02:45:21] <coderanger> macmaN6789: Please file a ticket about that
[02:45:39] <macmaN6789> im not even sure i understand this myself
[02:45:59] <macmaN6789> actually i do get /trac/project/wiki
[02:46:01] <coderanger> macmaN6789: URLs are symbolic representations of resources
[02:46:06] <coderanger> yes?
[02:46:11] <macmaN6789> yes i do
[02:46:19] <macmaN6789> i guess now it makes more sense a bit
[02:46:23] <coderanger> a wiki page is a resource, as is a ticket, the timeline, etc
[02:46:27] <macmaN6789> yes
[02:46:34] <coderanger> a project is also a resource
[02:46:43] <coderanger> like trac.edgewall.org
[02:46:58] <coderanger> So there should not be a trailing slash
[02:47:00] <macmaN6789> mkay
[02:47:06] <macmaN6789> no need to waste more of your time
[02:47:11] <macmaN6789> i think i got the picture
[02:47:20] <macmaN6789> just didnt feel natural at first
[02:47:20] <coderanger> Think of it as cat vs. ls
[02:47:51] <macmaN6789> ok my mac os x trac is working
[02:47:56] <macmaN6789> multiproject and all
[02:48:05] <macmaN6789> now its time to go for upgrading the gentoo install
[02:48:50] <coderanger> macmaN6789: virtualenv ftw
[02:50:13] <macmaN6789> what on earth is this
[02:50:20] <coderanger> @virtualenv
[02:50:21] <evil_twin> coderanger: "virtualenv" is http://pypi.python.org/pypi/virtualenv <-- a tool to create isolated Python environments.
[02:50:40] <macmaN6789> yeh obviously im already reading it
[02:50:42] <macmaN6789> but
[02:50:52] <macmaN6789> i would use this to keep running 0.10.4 and 0.11 side by side?
[02:51:32] <coderanger> indeed
[02:51:46] <coderanger> or just if you didn't want to go write an ebuild
[02:54:00] <macmaN6789> i have used +vhosts for now
[02:54:11] <macmaN6789> but +vhosts, to put it bluntly, is a crappy way to do things
[02:57:21] <macmaN6789> but i dont have a problem with moving everything to 0.11
[02:57:28] <macmaN6789> thats actually what i want to do anyway
[02:57:40] <macmaN6789> now it boils down to moving everything into multiproject env
[03:01:55] <cheshair> coderanger: isn't "commit only against open issues" a somewhat too strict policy? could i skip this pre-commit while using the post-commit script all the same?
[03:02:39] <coderanger> cheshair: Yep, they are independent of each other
[03:02:59] <macmaN6789> coderanger: whats your thoughts on db data sharing
[03:03:04] <macmaN6789> replication basically
[03:03:19] <macmaN6789> i could use some trac+postgres mechanism
[03:03:30] <macmaN6789> with central rw host and ro slaves
[03:03:34] <macmaN6789> for offline access
[03:03:37] <macmaN6789> for some projects
[03:03:49] <macmaN6789> are you using any such solutions
[03:04:19] <coderanger> No, doing full, live replication of Trac is currently not very feasible
[03:04:28] <coderanger> mostly because not everything is stored in the DB
[03:04:32] <cheshair> coderanger: so, if i got a right picture of the while thing: i set up trac, svn and those pre/post commit scripts. then i use my svn client of choice and write some significant log messages that will be parsed.
[03:04:48] <coderanger> cheshair: yes
[03:05:23] <macmaN6789> hrm
[03:05:29] <macmaN6789> if you svn your trac env
[03:05:37] <macmaN6789> what else is there
[03:05:37] <coderanger> ?
[03:05:50] <macmaN6789> what do you keep outside of db then
[03:05:58] <macmaN6789> and it doesnt have to be live..
[03:06:04] <macmaN6789> could be on command or delayed
[03:06:05] <coderanger> config data, logs, attachments
[03:06:26] <macmaN6789> like i said, those are all svn-able, if its all std filesystem stuff
[03:06:35] <macmaN6789> you keep a central svn repo of the env
[03:06:46] <coderanger> that would be odd, but possible I suppose
[03:07:12] <coderanger> Why not just throw the DB folders and trac env on a raid, and tell mdadm to email you if something goes wrong
[03:07:14] <macmaN6789> i was thinking of svn-ing sqlite db
[03:07:24] <coderanger> that would be a bad idea
[03:07:27] <macmaN6789> yep
[03:07:34] <macmaN6789> too unoptimal
[03:07:47] <coderanger> I would use the term "fucked in the head", but yes
[03:07:48] <macmaN6789> possibly not safe either
[03:07:51] <macmaN6789> :)
[03:08:08] <coderanger> basically there is no reason to use replication for Trac
[03:08:18] <macmaN6789> offline access
[03:08:21] <coderanger> just use trac-admin ... hotcopy for backups, and use RAID
[03:08:22] <macmaN6789> i want to play google gears?
[03:08:31] <cheshair> coderanger: thank you so much. you helped me to get a sharper picture of how things work
[03:08:36] <coderanger> Offline access for Trac makes very little sense
[03:08:46] <coderanger> it is a collaboration tool
[03:09:02] <macmaN6789> collaboration can come only from the understanding of separate persons
[03:09:10] <macmaN6789> if the person doesnt have access to the network
[03:09:17] <macmaN6789> he is not able to gather more understanding
[03:09:25] <macmaN6789> i dont want to take that away
[03:09:30] <macmaN6789> so i give him readonly access
[03:09:35] <macmaN6789> so at least he can browse and read
[03:09:40] <macmaN6789> while he's travelling or smth
[03:09:51] <coderanger> So use the existing CSV or XML output formats for tickets and reports, etc etc
[03:10:06] <coderanger> CSV of the report + excel works very well
[03:10:15] <macmaN6789> i dont see how that is a robust solution...?
[03:10:27] <macmaN6789> automatic mirroing of everything should be way more robust...?
[03:10:46] <coderanger> And that takes time, and is error prone
[03:10:51] <coderanger> simple solutions win
[03:10:57] <macmaN6789> could be
[03:11:00] <macmaN6789> ill be looking into it
[03:11:04] <macmaN6789> perhaps ill write something up
[03:11:06] <macmaN6789> should i put it together
[03:11:07] <coderanger> and requires a full trac install on every client computer
[03:11:18] <macmaN6789> that isnt a particularly big problem..
[03:11:38] <coderanger> Then you have a tiny team ...
[03:11:42] <macmaN6789> yep
[03:11:43] <macmaN6789> i do
[03:11:46] <macmaN6789> MIN 3 MAX 7
[03:11:50] <coderanger> and can probably just use a TODO file in subversion and be done with it
[03:12:11] <coderanger> Never underestimate the power of braindead-simple tools
[03:12:13] <macmaN6789> hardly
[03:12:21] <macmaN6789> yep true
[03:12:33] <macmaN6789> i guess you could also say why develop trac at all
[03:12:40] <macmaN6789> weve had notepad forever
[03:12:41] <macmaN6789> and samba
[03:12:45] <macmaN6789> and networked files
[03:13:10] <macmaN6789> its all about correct layering of things in my view
[03:13:30] <coderanger> Because there are places where things like public contributions and better handling of large numbers of users are required
[03:13:57] <coderanger> If offline-access if a priority for you, Trac is the wrong tool
[03:14:00] <coderanger> plain and simple
[03:14:14] <macmaN6789> not sure where you read "priority"
[03:14:22] <macmaN6789> its low priority
[03:14:26] <macmaN6789> and interesting for research
[03:14:29] <macmaN6789> and knowledge expansion
[03:14:34] <coderanger> "macmaN6789: i dont want to take that away"
[03:14:56] <macmaN6789> well yeah, doesnt mean i wont :P
[03:15:01] <macmaN6789> if shit just dont work
[03:15:02] <macmaN6789> right
[03:15:48] <coderanger> Its also worth noting you will need to filter the DB before handing it to users unless they are all fully trusted (read: they should all be granted TRAC_ADMIN)
[03:16:16] <macmaN6789> excellent point..
[03:16:57] <macmaN6789> some projects thats possible, some not, obviously..
[03:17:22] <coderanger> the tables to remove: auth_cookie, session, session_attribute, and possible permission
[03:19:44] <macmaN6789> does TracEnvParentDir work for 0.10.4 as well?
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[03:25:17] <coderanger> Yes
[03:32:38] <macmaN6789> very nice
[03:32:48] <macmaN6789> finally cleaned up the messy existing configuration
[03:32:55] <macmaN6789> osx works well with fcgi
[03:33:03] <macmaN6789> and gentoo got a cleaned up mod_python look
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[03:33:18] * clajo041 is now known as clajo04
[03:34:35] <macmaN6789> next step needs to be centralizing all auth into ldap
[03:41:13] <macmaN6789> ive been wondering is there some better interface to ldap than apache directory studio
[03:41:20] <macmaN6789> for user and addressbook mgmt
[03:41:33] <macmaN6789> ADS definitely does the job
[03:41:42] <macmaN6789> but is just incrdibly clunky..
[03:43:27] <coderanger> for querying I use jxplorer
[03:43:40] <coderanger> for admin stuffs, I just used the command-line tools
[03:46:39] <macmaN6789> ok looking at it
[03:46:57] <macmaN6789> well isnt that just great
[03:47:02] <macmaN6789> crashed unexpectedly
[03:47:27] <macmaN6789> Exception Type: EXC_CRASH (SIGABRT)
[03:47:27] <macmaN6789> Exception Codes: 0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000000
[03:47:27] <macmaN6789> Crashed Thread: 1
[03:50:22] * coderanger -> pass out
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[04:35:11] <cheshair> coderanger: still there? i come back and bother you with one question of mine. :-) post-commit-hook is capable of handling mail notification, but if i'm using trac i'd probably better to rely on trac itself for notifications, and use the hook for other tasks. am i right?
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[08:15:31] <ras0ir> YAY! i've fixed tracext.hg problem
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[08:24:18] <inki_> hi, can i link to a specific version of a wikipage?
[08:24:22] * inki_ is now known as i
[08:24:32] * i is now known as Inki
[08:24:34] <Inki> oops.
[08:24:49] <ras0ir> use wikilink@revnumber